Gotta tell ya, there are very few replies on here that just smack it....I mean, HIT IT OUT OF THE PARK....this one did. So I thought I would make it into a whole new post.
Anon 4:33, whoever you are. That was one of the most thoughtful, elaborate, well reasoned posts I have seen. NP's ARE great providers, and are my colleagues, at least to my consideration. But, some of the posts on here, well, they show either
A. DELIBERATE misinformation
B. Ignorance coupled with Misconception.
This is part of the problem, as I said yesterday, too many of us, BOTH PA's and NP's, are so friggin ready to attack at the slightest hint of someone impugning them, that they don't realize, that honest, and careful evaluation of BOTH our strengths AND our weaknesses will only make us BOTH better providers. Here is one poster's reply.
I never understand why this is even an argument. NPs are great practitioners in many respects and so are PAs. Physasst said nothing that isn't true, but several notions by the NPs here are. Let me enlighten everyone.
I'm a current Acute Care NP student that has started clinicals and finished didatics, so I can speak with great authority on current NP education. We don't need to recertify, a NP can go through a direct entry program and have no experience, NP education has no more slanted to the medical model than kindergarten has shifted to college, NPs are no more trained to practice independently that a PA, and there is one (hopefully so there will be more) clinical doctorate for PAs through Baylor.
Also the average PA has 4 years medical experience, has more basic science pre-reqs (From UAB PA program)
The following prerequisites:
3-4 semester hours of biology I (lab preferred)
3-4 semester hours of biology II (lab preferred)
3-4 semester hours of microbiology (lab preferred)
3-4 semester hours of human anatomy
3-4 semester hours human physiology (UAB BY 116 or BY 409)
8-9 semester hours of general chemistry (labs preferred)
3-4 semester hours of statistics (upper level, population, and/or health-related with lab preferred)
9 semester hours of psychology (general, developmental, abnormal)
They have higher requirements. This is from the Duke PA program and is representative of most Master's level PA programs.
The ranges of academic and experiential qualifications for the middle 50 percent of accepted applicants for Fall 2008 were as follows:
* Overall GPA: 3.3 – 3.7
* Natural science GPA: 3.1 – 3.6
* Total natural science credits: 47 –74
* GRE General Test scores:
o Verbal: 460 – 598
o Quantitative: 600 – 708
o Analytical Writing: 4.0 – 5.0
* Months of full-time patient care experience: 12 –60
, more advanced science in the didatic year (See UAB PA link above), and does 2000-2600 clinical hours total in the same medical rotations as doctors.
And since NPs have thrown down the gauntlet, let me take you down a peg.(See UAB's ACNP program) The Master's NP is a 18 month long program (24-37 part time which is what many choose to do). It contains a handful of science courses, and don't give me the "I went to nursing school" crap because I have a BSN and it didn't have but handful of sciences. Definitely no biochemistry or gross anatomy.The GRE is waved for students above a 3.2 GPA. The icing on the cake is they do a MINIMUM OF 675 CLINICAL HOURS! Vanderbilt only has 500 and their DNP doesn't add any clinical hours. Just look at the curriculum from the link above for Vanderbilt. How can you even argue that you have received more education.
Even if you somehow did, PAs can go on to post-graduate residencies and will have ~5000 clinical hours in a year. There are quite a few
And just because there were Midwives that practiced out long, long ago, doesn't mean that they somehow magically bequeathed knowledge to all future nurse practitioners.
Neither NP or PA practices "cook book" medicine. PAs can be very independent by owing their own practices or being 6 hours away from their SP. Yes, NPs have the "collaborative" practice which many have taken to mean independent, but it's really semantics. Just because PAs have "supervised" doesn't mean the MD goes through every chart and watches every thoracentesis the PA does. Even if there was a possibility for independent practice with absolutely no MD oversight, PAs don't want it. They know that the terminal degree to practice independently should be the MD/DO education.
I would like for someone to prove me wrong, but since I have links to actual school admissions and curriculum I doubt that you can.
P.S. I'm quitting NP school (sucks because I'm 2/3 through) to become a PA. I've seen both and researched both and find PA to be a better new grad (as long as the have health care experience), have more versatility in their profession (can switch specialties), and more opportunities for growth (PA residencies).
April 23, 2009 4:33 PM
Thanks for a wonderful reply, and no, before anyone goes into ATTACK mode, not because they are switching to become a PA, but because they posted valid, well reasoned logic, coupled with a lot of information. He/She could STILL become an NP, and I would have the utmost respect for this person.